Episode 16 | Here’s How to Say F*ck No! December 26, 2021

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GUEST: Sarah Knight, Author, F*ck No! How to Stop Saying Yes When You Can’t, You Shouldn’t, or You Just Don’t Want To

Do you often say yes when you want to say F*ck no!? Our guest Sarah Knight wants you to stop doing that – and she has the tools and strategies to show you how. In this episode, we talk about her latest book F*ck No! How to Stop Saying Yes When You Can’t, You Shouldn’t, or You Just Don’t Want To and how it relates to the powerful pull of reciprocity. In our society, social IOUs are a deeply entrenched concept. If you do something for me, then I’ll do something for you. But what if that “something” is “something” you don’t want to do? And what if it keeps you from doing another something that you want to do? Sarah shares how she learned to eliminate the guilt and say “No!” with confidence and conviction.

GUEST BIO:

Sarah Knight is the author F*ck No! How to Stop Saying Yes When You Can’t, You Shouldn’t, or You Just Don’t Want To. It’s the latest book in her No F*cks Given Guides, which have sold more than 3 million copies worldwide. She’s gained fans and earned critical praise for her profane approach, which she teams with practical knowledge. A Harvard graduate, Sarah was a top book editor in New York City where she worked with bestselling authors Gillian Flynn, David Javerbaum, and many others. In 2015, she left her corporate job, moved to the Caribbean, and published her first book in the series, The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a F*ck, which is currently in development as a major motion picture. Her TEDx Talk on the subject has nearly 10 million views, and she is in demand as a speaker. She’s also the host of the popular podcast No F*cks Given. Sarah lives in the Dominican Republic with her husband and two rescue cats, Gladys and Mister Stussy.

LINKS: 

Sarah Knight’s TEDx Talk

F*ck No! How to Stop Saying Yes When You Can’t, You Shouldn’t, or You Just Don’t Want To 

No F*cks Given quizzes

Full Transcript

BRAD PHILLIPS, HOST, THE SPEAK GOOD PODCAST:

You know that old Elton John song, “Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word?” Well for me, sorry comes rather easily. But I’ve always struggled with a different word – a short one that carries a harsh, staccato punch – NO.

There are many reasons why saying no is hard for me. One is that I’ve built a professional identity around being a person who says yes, who can get things done, who’s unusually flexible, who can be depended upon even when others cannot be. And saying “yes” – being the vendor who makes life easy for our clients – feels good, and that willingness and ability to be accommodating has been a key to our success through the years.

But next year, I’m turning 50. I’m more aware than ever that my time on this planet is finite. And I want to spend more time doing the things I love – having a catch with my kids, planning a summer family RV trip through national parks, or just curling up with a history book at the end of the day.

That’s what I want to do. But instead, too often I say yes to things that every part of me is wishing I could or would have said no to. And, as the expression goes, everything I say yes to is a no to something else.

Here’s an example of a yes I wish was a no. There’s an industry website that has been very generous with us through the years. They run our content, reliably send us warm emails about how much they enjoy our work, and frankly, they couldn’t be a better partner. So, when they’ve asked us to participate (for free!) in their online conferences, we’ve said yes. One good turn deserves another, right? But the truth is, producing a 30-minute webinar takes me three days of writing, building visuals, and recording. And it’s worth noting that we’ve never gotten any direct business out of our participation. But I’ve said yes anyway, because they’ve been good to us, so I want to be good to them, even if it’s bad for me.

That powerful tug I’m feeling is known as “the rule of reciprocation,” a social lubricant that has all sorts of benefits for how humans interact and cooperate with one another.

Robert Cialdini, an author and psychology professor who wrote Influence: Science and Practice, writes this:

“According to sociologists and anthropologists, one of the most widespread and basic norms of human culture is embodied in the rule for reciprocation. The rule requires that one person try to repay, in kind, what another person has provided. By obligating the recipient of an act to repayment in the future, the rule for reciprocation allows one individual to give something to another with confidence that it is not being lost. This sense of future obligation within the rule makes possible the development of various kinds of continuing relationships, transactions, and exchanges that are beneficial to the society. Consequently, all members of the society are trained from childhood to abide by the rule or suffer serious social disapproval.”

Cialdini continues by noting that:

“Because there is a general distaste for those who take and make no effort to give in return, we will often go to great lengths to avoid being considered a moocher, an ingrate, or a freeloader.”

So, no wonder I feel such an obligation to say yes to that webinar. The rule of reciprocation possesses awesome strength, and I’d hate for that editor to ever think that I’m acting selfishly – and to have him react to a no from me by thinking, “Seriously, after everything we’ve done for them, they can’t say yes to us?”

Even as I write those words, I’m struck by just how powerful that sense of obligation I feel is. Some of it is rational, but some of it is clearly an irrational and automatic – and obviously pretty unhelpful – response.

And that’s why I’ve decided to make my New Year’s resolution for 2022 to say NO, confidently, to the things I don’t want to do – and preserve that time instead for the things I want to say YES to.

Given how deeply this runs for me, I need a powerful guide. And Sarah Knight is just that person. Sarah is a New York Times bestselling author of The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a F*ck, Get Your Sh*t Together, You Do You, and Calm The F*ck Down. I suspect by now you’ve picked up on the theme here, which is why her books are known as “No F*cks Given” guides. She’s also the author of the book we’ll be talking about today, F*ck No! Actually, it’s F*ck No!: How to Stop Saying Yes When You Can’t, You Shouldn’t, Or You Just Don’t Want To.”

(MUSIC PLAYS)

So first of all, Sarah, thank you very much for saying yes to this. I want to begin with the fact that you have not always found it easy to get to NO. You obviously had a bit of a transformation in your life where it became easier for you. You wrote that well into your 30s you were a next-level people pleaser. So how did you get from that to the person who is now writing the F*ck No! book teaching people how to say no.

SARAH KNIGHT:

Well, I took a path that I hope many of your listeners will not have to take, which was one of desperation. I had been a striver my whole life, very ambitious Type A overachiever, as well as a people pleaser and found myself working in really high-level corporate book publishing, like I said, around my mid-30s, when it all just came crashing down in the form of baby’s first panic attack and ongoing issues with anxiety and depression that stemmed from there. And, it caused me to have a real reckoning with my life. You know, I loved my career in many ways. I loved working with authors and collaborating with them. I was very happy in my marriage. I had just bought an apartment in Brooklyn. I was really living the dream in many ways. But, there was clearly something deeply unsustainable that was going on in my life. And, when I was able to narrow it down, I did realize it was related to my job. And, just long story short, not being cut out for a corporate job really being somebody who needed to work for myself, which caused a huge paradigm shift for me. You know, I was someone who had been a team player, someone who had been so focused on moving up that ladder. To rip those things away from my identity that I had been building for over three decades and throw them aside in order to pursue a lifestyle and many lifestyle changes that were going to bring about better mental health and  happiness was a really big deal and that is when I started to begin having to say no both literally and figuratively to a lot of different things I just mentioned in order to kind of remake myself into the person I am now, about seven or eight years past that point.

PHILLIPS:

There is so much that you just said that I relate to, the difference being that I am almost 50 and still struggling with the things you did in your mid-30s, so I’m envious that you were able to get there before I did. But, you know, it strikes me to that I’m guessing for you that part of what made you successful was saying yes. So, all of sudden, you have to question if I start saying no to things will I be less successful, and ultimately deciding that you had to do it for mental health reasons and almost self-preservation.

KNIGHT:

Indeed. You are absolutely correct. And, part of it was I’ve said yes. I’ve always been the one to raise my hand. Give it to Sarah, she’ll do it right, she’ll do it wall, she’ll do it quickly, was part of it. And, also I started to feel that maybe my innate anxiety was a curse but also a blessing. And, I wouldn’t be who I was if I wasn’t so motivated by this constant stream of anxiety, and I had to unpack that. I had to face that. I had to take the risk of using both therapeutic and medicinal aids to, you know, work on my anxiety and panic, and the resulting depression, in order to find out whether I would be able to be the same successful, ambitious person, but just happier and healthier on the other side. And I am here to tell you that that was entirely possible. But, definitely, it felt so risky to undo this whole identity that I had built that had worked for me until it hadn’t, you know.

PHILLIPS:

Again, I am so glad you are my guide for this, because I’ve spoken about in a previous episode that I too resisted any kind of help with anxiety until – this may seem like an odd connection – David Letterman, who I’ve always enjoyed, started opening up about his own mental health, and led me to realize, “Oh, if I take sertraline, I still can be the same person, except better. It’s not going to fundamentally change who I am.” And so, you know, everything you are saying really is resonating very deeply with me. I would like to kind of explore all of the reasons it’s so difficult for people to say no. In the show open, I mentioned the rule of reciprocity. We feel like if somebody does something nice for us, that we have an obligation to do the same in return. But, I know that there’s a whole host of other reasons and the “no,” or the difficulty with “no,” is different for many people. Can you give us a menu of what those motivators are for people? Or, I guess it’s the opposite of motivators that makes it challenging for people to say no.

KNIGHT:

Yeah, I mean really the two biggest ones are guilt and obligation. And obligation ties into that reciprocity that you talked about, and we can move on to that in a little bit. But, guilt is the big one. And, there is so much guilt ingrained in us by society and the cultures that we live in, sometimes by our families, sometimes by our religions, and most of the time just in our own heads, that prevents us from saying no when we want to, when we realize that we can’t do something, we shouldn’t do something, we don’t really have to do something, we don’t want to do it, but we say yes, anyway, out of guilt. So, that is the thing that certainly motivates people pleasers. It motivates pushovers. I have kind of a four archetypes of yes-men – people pleasers, overachievers, fomoers (people with fear of missing out), and pushovers. And guilt is a big motivator for all of them. And, one of the things I tell people is you have to understand that most people do not care nearly as much about your life decisions as you think they do. Most of the time the guilt is coming from inside the house (LAUGHS).

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS)

KNIGHT:

And you need to address your own understanding of why you are feeling this way and it probably has just been drilled into you culturally and societally from a young age that you are supposed to say yes. You don’t really have to. And much like with my own experience of trying solutions for my anxiety and my panic, you have to try saying no. Discover the consequences that you feared are likely not there before you can get comfortable saying it again. And in the instances where there is somebody, an outside factor, a person who is actively making you feel guilty, who is saying I can’t believe you are not doing this, you are disappointing me, I am so surprised at your decision, those are people you need to be able to stand up to. And, I talk about this a lot in my book F*ck No! to varying degrees. A lot of people, their initial response to you saying, “Sorry, I can’t make it,” is “Oh, I wish you could,” or, “You sure I can’t change your mind?” That’s natural. They are not trying to make you feel guilty. They are just expressing their own wish that you could come. And you can mirror that back at them and say, “Yeah, I wish I could, too, but it’s just not possible.” A lot of times, that just ends the conversation. When you get involved with the rare slice of humanity who is really going to go after you with that guilt trip, the best thing I’ve found to say is, “I’m sorry you can’t take no for an answer, but I think that says more about you than it does about me.”

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS). Well, you are reminding me, I think in your book one of my favorite of your 400-plus ways of saying no that you offered to people, I think the example was something like a neighbor asking for some help with housework and you said three words, “No, next question?” as a way of shutting that kind of thing down.

KNIGHT:

Yeah, that’s what I call the hard no. I offer a few different blueprints for no in the book and the hard no is really meant to end the conversation. It doesn’t have to be mean. It doesn’t have to be rude or nasty. It just indicates there are no more reasons forthcoming. There is no more discussion forthcoming.

PHILLIPS:

Yes, and no more requests for favors from that neighbor anymore, forthcoming, which is probably another great advantage of the hard no.

KNIGHT:

(LAUGHS)

PHILLIPS:

I mention the rule of reciprocity in the open and just to kind of share with you how powerful is for me, you very kindly said yes to this podcast, and I don’t take that for granted and now I feel like I owe you a debt. So, if you were to come to me three months from now and say, “Hey, I have this 12-page form, or questionnaire that I am asking people who have done podcasts with before to complete, would you do it for me?” I would feel like I have to say yes. And so, I guess the question is when is it OK for me to say no just because you’ve done this thing for me doesn’t mean I have to reciprocate? And, when does that just become a selfish act on my part?

KNIGHT:

So, this ties back to the part on obligation, the second biggest motivator for saying yes when you really want to say no. And what you are talking about is really a misplaced sense of obligation. When you ask yourself, do I really have to, and I have a flow chart in the book – the do I really have to flow chart. That is how you determine what is a true obligation. You have to show up to work to receive your paycheck. Okay, that’s a real obligation. Filling out a 12-page survey that somebody asked you to fill out because they once did something for you is not a true obligation. You do not have to do that. So, this is a good question to ask yourself when you are initially trying to separate the wheat from the chafe when it comes to, you know, if you want to fill out my survey, great! But the questions are can I, should I, must I, do I want to, and will I? And so, you ask yourself can I do this? Do I have the time? Do I have the energy? If it is an issue of finances, do I have the money? If the answer is no, then the answer is no. If you can do something, must I? Do I really have to? Is it a true obligation? Or, am I only considering doing it because I am in this specific case trying to reciprocate something nice that somebody did for me? And, I would just say in the specific thing you are talking about, remember that the person on the other end of the transaction whether it’s business or emotional, they said yes for their own reasons.

PHILLIPS:

Yes. Right.

KNIGHT:

I didn’t say I’ll come on your podcast so that I could bank a favor from you. There are people in the world that do that. And, I’m not saying that’s the wrong way to go about the world. But if you put yourself in the other person’s shoes and think do I go around expecting things of other people because I did something for them? No. I do things because I can, because I should, because I have to, and because I want to. If I can’t do them, I shouldn’t do them. I don’t want to do them. I don’t have to do them. And, I don’t. And so, I made my decision in the past and it shouldn’t impact what your decision is in the future.

PHILLIPS:

And, I guess, if your response to my no to the questionnaire was to be upset or angry with me, that’s not my problem. And, I just have to be able to sit with the fact that “Look, I can’t control the reaction other people have to my no. I would hope that they would react reasonably for all of the reasons you just articulated. But, even if they don’t, that’s doesn’t mean I’m not entitled to say no.

KNIGHT:

Yeah, and look, I’ve been on the other end of that. I’m in a position where I have to publicize my books and my podcast and all of this stuff and I’ve had to ask people, you know, influencers, people who have more influence than me and a little bit less influence than me, people whose shows I’ve been on, people whose books I’ve blurbed … I’ve had to ask them for reciprocal kinds of favors like that in the past. And, it’s just like sending out invitations to a wedding. You get nos. (LAUGHS) And you just have to respect people’s reasons for saying no. I’ve certainly had to say no in the past, even to things I’ve wanted to do, but I literally could not. I did not have the time, the brainpower, the energy, the money, the whatever it was to do them. And, I just try to remember, even if I am momentarily miffed by somebody by what I perceive as a little bit of a snub or a slight, I think they are out there living their life, they’ve got their reasons. It has nothing to do with me.

PHILLIPS:

Right.

KNIGHT:

I’m moving on.

PHILLIPS:

Yes. One thing my wife has really helped me with through the years as I’ve spoken with her, and she’s well aware of my guilt associated with saying no and I do say no to things occasionally, but I often carry around guilt or its just the thought that’s lingering in my mind way more than it should be, and so one of the things I often do when I say no is offer somebody a plausible explanation for why I can’t do something. For example, I might say, I’m sorry, I would love to do that, but I have not been spending enough time with my kids lately and I want to make sure I can ….. so, I give this long, labored explanation and my wife will always say to me, “Why? You don’t have to offer an explanation. Just say no, I’m sorry, I can’t.” So, my question to you is, is it a bad thing if I think of this as something I need to learn to do in two steps. First, the most important thing is saying no, and if I need to offer an explanation after that for the time being, so be it. And then, part two, over time, work to reduce the need for that explanation.

KNIGHT:

I think that sounds like a really good plan. I am in your wife’s camp. Ours is not to reason why. I don’t not feel as if we need to give reasons for our nos. But, part of the reason that I take such a hard line on that is because it is going to help you in the end to not feel like you have to do that. You are going to be saving a lot more time and energy in the end of you no longer feel compelled to spin these reasons. There are going to be situations where you feel it is appropriate to give more of an explanation. If it is work related, in a professional situation, where you really feel like you need to get some empathy, whether you are dealing with your boss or maybe a client, explain exactly what is going on. For example, when I told you that I needed to reschedule our chat, I gave you the reason, which I won’t bore your listeners with or gross them out with, but I gave you the reason so that you would understand exactly how serious the situation was and I wasn’t just flaking on you. But, that’s really few and far between, I think. So, in your case, I would just really practice saying no, I’m sorry I can’t make it. No, I can’t afford that right now. No, I don’t have the time for that, and just let it sit. And see what happens. Sit with your own discomfort and see if there are any repercussions from the person you are dealing with and if there are not, which they probably won’t be, I think it will be easier for you to give the simple no, over and over again as you go.

PHILLIPS:

Yes. You brought up the word identity a few minutes ago. You wrote something that jumped out at me in your book when you said a big part of “F*ck No” is learning to say no with confidence in your delivery aimed at other people, but also in who you are, what you want, and what it takes to achieve it. And, so what that made me think is that my self-identity has been built around being the person who can get stuff done – similar to what you were describing in your days in your 30s when you were working as an editor. How do you rewrite the script so that your self-identity is no longer I’m the yes-guy and more around, I guess, … I am the person who says yes to the things that can be productive for my life? I mean I used that expression in the open. Everything you say yes to is a no to something else. I find that incredibly liberating and that’s what I am trying to rewire my identity to remember. So, are there any thoughts around how to do that?

KNIGHT:

Yeah, so I do think it’s a mindset shift. I think that one of the things that I personally was able to do when I reformulated myself as someone who set much firmer boundaries was that people admire me for that. That I am seen as a really impressive, successful person for being someone who can continue to operate at a  very high level because that didn’t change. Imagine when I stopped overburdening and stopped overextending and stopped overdrawing myself, I actually got even a little bit better at all of the things that I was doing. People tend to really see that in you and admire it. So, if you are somebody who takes sustenance and pride in being the go-getter and somebody who can get it all done, then you can shift that into taking pride in being somebody who can set clear boundaries and stick to them. So, you know, I think there is a way to take the overachiever in us and just reframe it, as I am now overachieving it at the art of saying confident nos.

PHILLIPS:

I love that. You also talked about advocating for extra candor when it would help avoid a similar situation down the line. The specific example you gave was the line, “I can’t go to the party because I have crippling social anxiety. So instead of coming up with a new line anytime you invite me somewhere, I’m just going to be straight with you now.” So that is offering a little bit of an explanation. It seems like in that case, people without that explanation may have formed the wrong idea. They may have thought you are just a standoffish, aloof person or even a person who doesn’t want to pursue a friendship with them. When, in truth, you might be very interested in a friendship with that person, but you’d prefer it as a one-on-one dinner instead of in a party with 30 other people.

KNIGHT:

Absolutely. And this is a really good tip for people who experience FOMO, both in a personal and a professional setting, actually. And, it’s something I go into in depth in the book. But basically, I think a lot of people with FOMO (the fear of missing out), they say yes, even when they want to say no. For example, in a party situation, even though they know it’s going to make them really socially anxious and awkward, they are afraid if they say no people will never invite them again and people will talk about them behind their back. That people will stop being their friend. For example, in a professional situation that I also talk about in the book, I was asked to go on an extensive overseas work trip that I did not want to go on for lots and lots of reasons. I was afraid to say no because I didn’t want my boss to think poorly of me. I didn’t want to never be considered for such an opportunity again, etc. In these situations, I do think that expressing the truth behind your FOMO will set you free. Say to your friends, “Thank you so much for inviting me. I want to be honest with you about why I can’t come, because I don’t want you to think x, y, or z of me.” And what I said to my boss was, “Here are all of the very honest reasons why I do not want to do this, but I really appreciate the opportunity and I hope that you will continue to think of me for similar but not quite this extensive opportunities in the future.” And that worked really well, and I tell that story in the book. So, for people who suffer from FOMO that added bit of candor can really unburden you. And, one of those four types of nos that I mentioned, the hard no is one of them. But one of them is the no for now. And that really helps people with FOMO, which is to say no to your friends who are putting together a summer beach share. I can’t afford that this summer, but God, I’d love to be there. I will save up if you promise to invite me next year. Just be really honest.

Honesty and politeness is the cornerstone of all of my books. I feel like people see the “F” words in the title and they think like, oh she’s a … another bad word … (LAUGHS), but really what I am trying to get across to people is that honesty and politeness are the most efficient path toward getting what you and not getting what you don’t want.

PHILLIPS:

Well, you are, very clearly in this conversation, you are a wonderful demonstration of how you can be polite and even gentle and still be assertive enough to say no. So, I think the fear some people have, and I am speaking for myself right now is that people will perceive you instead with some level of harshness if you say no. And, I think we have already covered some of this ground, but I am wondering if you could take on the role again of being my coach for a moment. There was a real-life thing that happened to me several years ago, and I even think in the book you bring up that when you switch seats on my flight scenario, which was the exact same scenario that had happened to me. I was on a flight. I am not a great flyer, so I like to book an aisle seat so I can get up and use the restroom when I need to. I don’t have to feel trapped against a window and so I tend to book my seat immediately upon booking my ticket. And, that’s often a couple of months before the flight. So, on this one particular flight, a family boarded the plane. It was mom, dad, and two kids. They were separated on the plane, and I just want to make clear that they were separated by two and two. It was not like they were going to have a 4-year-old sitting by themselves in a middle. Next to two strangers. Each of them had a parent. But, they wanted all four of them to be together and to accommodate that, they asked me to switch my seat. I instantly had all of this stuff flooding my brain – guilt, obligation, a sense of wouldn’t I want somebody to switch seats with me so I would be able to keep my family together in the same scenario? But also that feeling of why should I have to switch my seat. I did this two months ago so I could fly in the way I felt more comfortable. And those two parts of my brain are fighting. And even if I do assert myself as I ultimately did in that, very gently, I think I said, “So sorry, I’m a nervous flyer, and I need an aisle seat.” I felt guilty for the rest of that flight. What would you tell me to shut that down?

KNIGHT:

(LAUGHS) Well, first of all, we are exactly the same person, in this vein. I, however, do prefer the window for totally different reasons. But, I book my seats months in advance, and it’s very important to me and I’ve had lots of situations where I have been in the same position as you’ve been, and I would do exactly what you did, which is to say, “I’m really sorry, but this is important to me, and I am not going to be able to accommodate you.” I would probably feel a little bit guilty about it. But, I would also remember when you mentioned the do unto others, they could have assigned their seats months in advance. They could have done all of the things that I did to ensure that I was getting what I needed that was really important to me. And here is something that is kind of a good tool. And, I talk about it mostly in my third book, which was called You Do You, the only one that doesn’t have a swear in the title, so I can say it on this podcast ..

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS)

KNIGHT:

But that book dealt with being selfish in a good way. The difference between good selfish and bad selfish. And my general rule of thumb is if it helps you more than it hurts somebody else, then go ahead and do what you need to do for you. And to your point that you aren’t leaving a 4-year-old alone, there was clarity to you there would be a parent and a child together and they would be split two and two, I don’t think in any world, you could be considered to have been hurting them more than you were helping yourself by sticking to your guns and saying no. You are a nervous flyer. You know you need to get up and move around. They don’t know what’s going on in your brain, but I also do have my other additional thoughts about how we just can’t bend over to accommodate people who have children on the planes. I don’t have children myself, that’s probably an unpopular thing to say, but they got to plan for that in the same way I have to plan for my extreme fear of flying among other things.

PHILLIPS:

Right.

KNIGHT:

So, I say if you are worried about being selfish and that’s leading you to feeling guilty, ask yourself is saying no going to hurt them more than it’s going to help me. And, if the answer is no, then I think you should feel comfortable doing what you need to do. But, if you really do look at something and say me wow, me saying no is going to hurt somebody else more than it helps me, then maybe that is one of those situations where you maybe swallow it and you say OK, I’m going to make this compromise because it would hurt them more than it would help me if I don’t.

PHILLIPS:

That’s a really interesting framework to look at these situations through, because it occurs to me if, indeed, the 4-year-old would have been in a middle seat next to two strangers that might have changed my calculation. Maybe both my self-preservation and, as you suggested, the irritation toward them for not booking their seats far enough in advance, would have been overcome by the fact that I just would have recognized the unfairness of a 4-year-old flying by him or herself through no fault of their own. Maybe that would have changed my risk vs. reward calculation in that moment.

KNIGHT:

And, there’s also another quick thing, which is another one of those no archetypes that I mentioned and that one is called the no and switch. And it’s when you say no, but you offer another alternative. So, in this situation, you might say, listen, I really don’t want to give up my seat, it’s very important to me. I’m a nervous flyer, but I understand you are in a bind. Can we ask the flight attendant if there is another solution?

PHILLIPS:

Right. Imagine that a third possible solution that doesn’t fit into that binary box that we tend to create for ourselves especially in a stressful moment where you have to make a fast decision.

KNIGHT:

I love the no and switch because, you know, you get invited to an all-day family scavenger hunt, with your sister and brother-in-law, and the nephews and nieces and you are like, Oh God, I don’t want to get up at 10 a.m. to roll around in the mud with a bunch of 4-year-olds …

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS)

KNIGHT:

…  but I really want to see my sister, or even my sister and one of her kids in a more calm environment that suits me better. So, you say, no, I can’t make it to the scavenger hunt, but would you like to go out for coffee and scones next Sunday at noon with me? My treat. And you show somebody you care about them. You actually put forward another option that is good for you and you put the “no” ball in their court and they can say no if they want. And, then you haven’t had to go to the scavenger hunt. They haven’t had to go get coffee and scones next Sunday. And you are both happy.

PHILLIPS:

I want you to know you have already taught me something. I read your book a couple of weeks ago now, and my wife got an invitation from a friend of our older son who was inviting him to an indoor birthday party. Right now, the caseload of COVID is going way up in New York and I don’t feel comfortable with our son going into an indoor birthday party.

KNIGHT:

Oh, you absolutely should not.

PHILLIPS:

And so, I said, thinking about your, what do you call it? no and switch?

KNIGHT:

The no and switch.

PHILLIPS:

So, I said, how about we suggest that we are uncomfortable due to COVID case numbers rising, going to an indoor party. How about we treat you and your family to a great outdoor pizza at the nearby restaurant that has outdoor heaters during the winter, so it is comfortable for us to all be together. And so, I just want you to know your book has already had a real-life, practical impact on my life. So, thank you for that.

KNIGHT:

I am so happy to hear that. An outdoor pizza is so much better than indoors with a bunch of kids even non-COVID times.

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS) I’d like to, for a moment, get into the language of no with you. As I mentioned, I think you said in your book that you counted something on the order of 435 nos and then you got tired of counting and stopped listing additional ones, but you have all sorts of different colorful ways and straightforward ways of saying no. Are there a few that you think are kind of almost like the Swiss Army knife nos? They have such utility that they should always be with you?

KNIGHT:

Well, definitely alas. Alas is my favorite word. Alas is really good in any setting. It’s good in a professional setting. It’s good in a family setting. Alas, can’t make it that weekend. Alas, we are already booked. Alas, I spent my last 20 dollars until payday. It’s a rally multifunctional way to say no. And, it’s kind of charming, old world, alas ….

Another thing that isn’t actually the no is “I need to think about that.” You should always keep “I need to think about that” in your back pocket. Because, so many people are like deer in headlights when they fell they have to say yes or no in the moment and it is perfectly fine for you to say, I’m going to need to think about that.” You can even say I need to check my calendar and get back with you, even if you don’t need to check your calendar. You have to have these ways of postponing the no, so you have time to muster up your confidence and your no skills and say it – whether you end up saying it in person or in a follow-up email or text.

So, I really like alas, as a way to ease into a no. And, I really like I’m going to need time to think about that or I’m going to have to check my calendar and get back with you. Or, sometimes, I’ll check with my wife and get back to you … as a way to just slow your no roll. I think that those are two really useful ways to fly.

PHILLIPS:

Yes, because if your immediate impulse, like mine, is to say yes, it buys you time to almost coach yourself until you are ready to give the answer that you really wanted to give. My final question for you Sarah. Am I correct that you are now in the Dominican Republic?

KNIGHT:

Yes. I live in the DR.

PHILLIPS:

So, I fantasize sometimes, and again, this is all in part because I overcommit myself and often don’t say no and my wife and I will talk sometimes about throwing it all away and just saying let’s get on a plane and let’s move somewhere. We are going to life a simpler, easier life. But, the truth is that part of the reason I fantasize about that is because I feel incapable of doing it in the current contours of my life.

KNIGHT:

Hmm.

PHILLIPS:

So, I guess my question for you is do you feel like sometimes you almost do have to throw it away and say, that’s it, I’m moving to an island. I’m getting out of here, in order to be able to create the life you want. Or, is there hope for me still living in New York, creating the life you’ve been able to so successfully create for yourself in the DR?

KNIGHT:

Oh, I definitely don’t think you have to throw it all away. I actually write about this a lot in my second book, which is called Get Your Sh*t Together. And, it explains this big move that I made after quitting my job and leaving Brooklyn. But, also, how you can apply all of these tools to much smaller life changes. And basically, what I would say is small, manageable chunks for everything. You have to sit down. You have to have a 10-minute honest conversation with yourself about what’s working and what isn’t working and brainstorm ideas large and small that might change the way that you are feeling or the way that your days are going. And then, work toward them, again, in small, manageable ways. I didn’t just chuck it all, walk out of my boss’ office, and get on a plane and wind up in the DR. I spent a year saving up to quit my job, both psychologically preparing myself and financially preparing myself to go freelance. Spent that time building a freelance website, making a plan for how I was going to get clients. Subsequently, my husband and I decided to make the move since I was no longer based in New York to do my job. That required researching where we were going to live and learning a new language. Just deciding that you are going to go on Duolingo once a day every day for a month is a small manageable chunk that can get you toward a much bigger goal. But those goals don’t have to be chuck it all and completely change your life. It could mean rework things, so your Sundays are way better than they are now.

PHILLIPS:

Well, I sincerely thank you for saying yes to this, because, as I told you in my initial email, this is my new year’s resolution. Being able to carve out the time for the things I really care about most and do away with the things I say yes to out of that sense of obligation and guilt we’ve been talking about throughout this episode. I also as a podcast host, have this really interesting experience that when I speak with somebody, I’m hearing them, I’m listening to them, but I am also thinking about what’s my next question going to be. Do we have to cut it off? Are we almost at time? And, it’s when I listen back to the episode that I really hear the brilliance that the persona hared with me during the episode. So, I’m really looking forward to listening back. As I told you, I’ve already been incorporating some of your lessons into my daily life and I look forward to doing that with a lot more of the things you shared today. So, Sarah, thank you for joining us. Her book is, F*ck No! How to Stop Saying Yes When You Can’t, You Shouldn’t, or You Just Don’t Want To. Sarah Knight thank you for being my guide through the 2022 New Year’s resolution.

KNIGHT:

Well, thank you very much for having me and happy no year to you.

• F*ck No!
• Sarah Knight