Episode 4 | Managing Up July 11, 2021

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GUEST: Mary Abbajay, Author, Managing Up: How to Move Up, Win at Work, and Succeed with Any Type of Boss

It may sound counterintuitive, but do you know how to manage your boss? Conversely, if you are a boss or manager, are you open to making changes in your style so your employees can thrive? Author, consultant, and trainer Mary Abbajay has spent the past 14 years working with businesses, organizations, and institutions to create workplaces that allow supervisors, and the people they supervise, to thrive. In this episode, we’ll discuss the notion of “managing up,” and how that can make for more rewarding working relationships.

GUEST BIO:

Mary Abbajay is a consultant, speaker, and trainer. She provides leadership development strategies to business and government agencies through her consulting firm Careerstone Group LLC, of which she is president and co-founder. She works with her clients to create dynamic and productive workplaces that foster professional and personal excellence and growth. She also is the bestselling author of the book, Managing Up: How to Move Up, Win at Work, and Succeed with Any Type of Boss.  

LINKS:

Managing Up: How to Move Up, Win at Work, and Succeed with Any Type of Boss

Careerstone Group

Full Transcript

BRAD PHILLIPS, HOST, THE SPEAK GOOD PODCAST:

My mother is a compulsive list maker. During one lunch out many years ago, as soon as we were seated, she took her list out of her purse and started peppering me with questions: “Did you renew your health insurance? Do you remember that your cousins are coming to visit next month? Did you receive the tuition information from your college yet?”

At some point, I interjected and pleaded with her, “Mom, can’t we just have a spontaneous conversation?” “Of course,” she said. “That’s number six on my list.”

Now, I swear that story happened just as I’ve described it, but my mother thinks I invented it. And, because she brought me into this world, I’ll let her have this one. But stories like these often have a predictable ending and, well, now I find myself as a 40-something business owner who has also become a compulsive list maker.

Every day, I look at my Outlook task list. Not once, but probably 30, 40, 50 times. Every time I complete or make progress on a task, I either delete it or advance the due date on it to the next time I have to do something related to it.

The calmest I ever feel is when I leave work without any important tasks left undone. My days are geared around a constant cycle of “get it done – keep your head down – do the work – move on.” I’m not saying that’s a psychologically healthy way to live. In fact, I’m sure it’s not. But, on the plus side, I’m more present with my family once I get home if I know I can truly leave work behind.

But let’s say you’re someone who works with me or for me. You want to talk a problem through at length, or spend some extra time making sure you understand something I’ve delegated to you. Or, you just want to chat for a few minutes about something that happened over the weekend. In my mind, I’m thinking two things: One, those conversations can be really important. They build relationships and forge deep bonds, and they help the team achieve shared goals more effectively. But two, it also means that either I won’t be able to complete my list that day – or will have to work later in order to do so.

I like direct communications, shorter emails, and phone calls rather than longer ones, and conversations that get straight to the heart of the matter and end as soon as we’ve covered the agenda. I also know that many people find that unsatisfying or impersonal. My motivator isn’t being cold to other people, ever – in fact, I’m know I’m quite warm. But the clock is ticking. And I know I have a lot left to do.

If you work for someone else, you’ve probably already discovered that your preferred workstyle and that of your direct managers or top executives, aren’t always aligned. But, if you’re going to thrive in your job, you might have to figure out how to work with them differently – which might mean meeting them where they are rather than leaning solely on wherever your instincts might lead you. And yes, for us managers, it also means learning about different work styles, communicating our preferences clearly instead of expecting people to just take their best guesses about what we might want, and being willing to be managed up.

My guest today, Mary Abbajay, is the president and co-founder of Careerstone Group, a woman-owned organizational and leadership development consultancy based in Washington, DC. She is also the author of a book I really enjoyed, Managing Up: How to Move Up, Win at Work, and Succeed With Any Type of Boss. You might not be surprised to learn that her writing style is crisp and gets right to the point, which is precisely why I enjoyed it so much. Mary, it is really good to have you on The Speak Good Podcast.

MARY ABBAJAY:

Thank you so much. I am so delighted to be on your podcast, and I’m so delighted you are doing one. So, thank you very much, Brad, for inviting me.

PHILLIPS:

Thank you, Mary. I’d like to begin with a question some people might be asking right out of the gate, which is, “Hold on a minute, if I’m an employee, why should I have to manage up? Isn’t that game playing? I mean, why can’t we just all be adults here and work in the manner that works best for us?” Your answer to that is what?

ABBAJAY:

Is if only life were that simple. So, here’s the thing. When we talk about managing up, I want people to be really clear. We’re not talking about playing games. We’re not talking about sucking up. We’re not talking about being a sycophant or someone’s patsy. We’re talking about managing that relationship. We’re talking about managing the relationships that matter the most for your career success. And one of those relationships happens to be the one that you have with your boss. Your managers and those people above you in the food chain have a lot of influence over your career trajectory. They have a lot of influence over the types of projects you get to be a part of, a lot of influence over the teams that you’re going to be on. They have a lot of influence over your visibility in the organization and in your industry and profession. So, when we have really great relationships with the people above us, really great opportunities will come our way. When we don’t then opportunities may pass us by. And so, a part of your success, your career success relies on having a really great productive and positive relationship with your manager. It’s really up to you to make that happen, because  we can’t change or control other people. We can only take control over what we do, what we say, what we think. And then lastly, let’s not forget, not everybody who’s a manager is going to be good at it, or they may not be good for you. And so, we have to really learn how to work with people in the workplace who may work differently than us. And when someone has a different level of power or influence over our career, we want to make darn sure that we are working well with them so that good things will happen for us. Good things will happen for them. And good things will happen for the organization.

PHILLIPS:

I know this is a big question because every boss is different and the reasons why an employee and a manager might not see eye to eye on how to go about their work are myriad. But in general terms, if you’re an employee who feels like something is a little bit off in communications or work style with your boss, where do you start?

ABBAJAY:

Great question. Well, hopefully, well you can start a couple of different places. I’m going to give you the framework. You know, ideally you’re going to have a conversation with your boss. And, you’re going to have a conversation to learn these things. Or, hopefully, in the perfect world, your boss has had a conversation with you, so that they can articulate what I call their priorities, their preferences, their pet peeves, etc. But if you don’t have that conversation or if you had it, and you’ve forgotten about it, the managing up is a really simple formula. It’s simple, but it’s not always easy. And it’s simple because it has three steps. Number one, you’re going to really take some time to identify your boss’ style. How does your boss operate? What are their priorities? What are their preferences? What are their pet peeves? How do they like to communicate? What’s their time and pace orientation? Take a look at who your boss really is – not who you wish they were, not who they should be – but who are they really? How do they really show up? How do they really like to work? And I want you to do this without judging who your boss is. People are complex. People are different. We all approach things in our own unique way. Try to learn what your boss’ unique way is. The second step is to then take a look at yourself, like Brad, how do you operate? How do you show up? How do you communicate and collaborate? What’s it like to work with you? What are your preferences, your priorities, and your pet peeves in the workplace? And I don’t want people to judge themselves either, but I do think we need to be honest with ourselves.  What’s it like to work with us? How do we really show up? Because all too often, we have expectations that everybody should be just like us and that’s not true. So you want to take a good look of who you really are and how you show up. Now, you know who your boss really is, not who they should be, but who they really are, who you really are. And then you’re going to assess the gap. How are you the same? How are you different? And in what ways can you close that gap? And this is really for you. This is where we have a choice. We get to choose what we might do a little more, a little less of, a little differently to close that gap, to align our style of working and interacting with our bosses. And this is the part that gets really hard because we kind of like the way we operate. I like the way I operate. It’s why I do it every day. For example, you may have noticed that I talk kind of fast. I am a fast talker.

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS) As a New Yorker. I appreciate your fast style.

ABBAJAY:

Exactly. But guess what? People in the south, not so much. When people ask me to slow down, I think, well, why can’t you just listen faster? That would be easier for me, but we can’t control other people or change them. So really our power lies in what we’re willing to do, how we’re willing and able to flex to actually align ourselves and our communication and our collaboration style with those around us, especially with those who have a lot of influence over our career. So that’s it: identify who your boss is, identify who you are, assess that gap, and then figure out how you’re going to close it.

PHILLIPS:

What really strikes me about the first two parts is that for both of them, you said, analyze your boss and analyze yourself without judgment.

ABBAJAY:

Yeah.

PHILLIPS:

In your book, you use the line, you need to shift your attitude from annoyance to curiosity, which I really liked. Because, if you are looking at your boss and the first thing that comes to your mind is, “Oh, he’s such a jerk,” there’s no analysis there. You’ve made a conclusion. You don’t know the factors that are going into his behavior. And if you don’t know that, you can’t fix them. But I imagine that for a lot of people, it gets so frustrating that there is that leap to having these big overarching takes on people, like “he’s a jerk” or “he’s not very attentive.” Very little progress can come from it.

ABBAJAY:

Very little progress. And you know, the danger of that is twofold. Number one, once we label someone as a jerk, even if they are or a micromanager or this or that, then our mental model does nothing but filter those beliefs back into our head. So, if I decide Brad that you are XYZ, then I’m only going to look for those behaviors or those qualities that reconfirms my confirmation bias of who you are. So that’s number one. It’s going to just shut down opportunity for you. Number two is when we have a negative attribution towards somebody. When I think you are a jerk, then chances are I’m going to get trapped by my amygdala, right? My reptile brain is going to take over—fight or flight friend or foe. And when our reptile brain takes over our executive functioning decreases greatly. So,  you become less strategic. You become less choiceful. You become less smart. And this is not what I want for people. So, we do, I do realize part of emotional intelligence is if your boss’ behaviors trigger you, you’ve got to get yourself un-triggered. So, then you can strategically, calmly, objectively figure out how you’re going to navigate that person. And, by the way, never ever forget or miss out on the opportunity to learn how to deal with someone who is difficult. Because, as you know, it is a quality and a skill that will serve you your entire life.

PHILLIPS:

Mary, one of the things that has always struck me throughout my career is occasionally I’ll give a presentation to a group and there’s always that guy who’s maybe in the middle of the auditorium, who there is nothing I could do to reach him. I may tell a joke. I may use humor. I may try to interact with him in some meaningful way. And he just, he leaves me cold. There’s just nothing I can do to reach them. And then at the end of the presentation, that guy will often come up to me and say, “That was great. Can I have your card?” And I think to myself, what world was I just in witnessing his behavior when he was sitting there, but then seeing that he obviously had a positive response to me. The reason I’m bringing that up is I think, you know, sometimes one of the things that interferes is we could see a certain action that a boss is taking and could draw some kind of conclusion that’s inaccurate. And so, it’s important, I think, to remember that we may be bringing our own stuff to our perceptions and those things maybe leading you down a very bad path.

ABBAJAY:

We may be. We are. This is what we do. This may be the difference between intent versus impact. So, we can only experience people’s behaviors and know the impact that they have on us. But we immediately, as human beings, we assign or ascribe some sort of intention to them. Like that person may have been just listening very quietly, absorbing the magic and brilliance that is Brad Phillips. But instead, you were like, oh my God, he hates me. He hates this. You ascribed motivation and his intention and human beings are not as smart as we think we are. We get that wrong a lot. So, I think that is absolutely correct. We cannot, because when we are judging people, we are ascribing their motivations. And you could be right, but you could be way off. And when you’re way off, that’s not good for building a relationship.

PHILLIPS:

Absolutely right. Now, what happens if you have multiple bosses. Are you supposed to shapeshift and mold yourself into a different employee for every one of your supervisors, each of whom has a slightly different work style?

ABBAJAY:

Absolutely. Here’s the thing: I want you to view this as an opportunity, an opportunity to become a ninja at relationship management, right? Because as we said before, all of your workplace relationships matter, the ones with your supervisors, the one with your colleagues and one with your team that works for you, your clients, your customers, and they’re all going to come in lots of different shapes and sizes. So, when you have multiple supervisors, this is a real opportunity to become a master at relationship management. And when we talk about shapeshifting, we’re not talking about changing who you are fundamentally. We’re not talking about you being someone you’re not. What we’re talking about is enhancing your ability to communicate, to connect, to collaborate with people that may connect, collaborate, communicate differently than you. It is such an art form for people who are able to connect with a diverse group of human beings. And let me also be clear, really great managers, really great managers, the kind of managers and leaders that people would follow to the ends of the earth are usually those people to whom they are able to see the unique value in every person that they meet. And they are able to adjust how they lead that person. So, if you ever aspire to being a great leader or a great manager, you are going to want to learn how to be adaptive in your relationship management as soon as you can, because it is the one quality that will just keep people following you everywhere. So, take the opportunity, learn how to do it. And also, you don’t know where your next great opportunity is going to come from Boss A, B, C, or D. So why not build a great relationship with all four of them.

PHILLIPS:

I really like what you just said. You kind of gave me an “a-ha” moment here because, I always think about, let’s say a standup comedian and that standup may work very blue on stage and be profane and a lot of R-rated language or X-rated scenes. And then when that same standup goes to Thanksgiving dinner at the great aunt’s house, perhaps the language is toned down a little bit. And my point is that both versions of that person are genuine. You’re just leading with a different quality for a different person. So, I take it that’s what you’re saying. You’re not changing fundamentally who you are, but maybe you’re leading in with different qualities at the four.

ABBAJAY:

That’s exactly right. Oftentimes, people will say to me, you know, but it’s not authentic if I do this, or, you know, I’m authentically that. And I think your authenticity is who you are inside. It’s your energy. It’s your value systems. It’s your perspective on life. It is not the words you choose to communicate with people. Authentically, Brad, I am a sailor that hopes someday to be a truck driver. I like salty language. And so, as you said, like your comedian example, does that mean I’m being inauthentic If I’m not dropping F-bomb after F-bomb on this podcast? No, it means I’m being appropriate for the situation and the relationship. So really it is about making these fine-tune adjustments to your choices in how you interact, so that you can bring the best of your authentic self forward, the most appropriate of your authentic self forward.

PHILLIPS:

Thank you for not making me put an explicit language label on this episode of the podcast.

ABBAJAY:

(LAUGHS)

PHILLIPS:

One of the things I really liked about your book – you  see these kinds of diagnostic tools a lot – I thought yours transcended the usual and were particularly helpful in identifying the four common workplace personalities. So maybe you can help us, 30 seconds each, with each of those four common workplace personalities. I suspect that listeners will categorize themselves into one of those four. I know that I did. Let’s begin with the advancer.

ABBAJAY:

All right. The advancer is all about getting stuff done. The advancer is your fast-paced personality, it’s your task-oriented personality. They’re the ones who are going to walk into your office, go into the zoom room, pick up the phone and say, “Hey, where’s the pesky project?” And you’ll think, oh, well, good morning to you. They like to move fast, think fast. It’s all about work. There’s no crying in baseball. I don’t need to like you to work with you. I just need you to get your stuff done. That’s task one. Next: task two. It’s all about moving the ball forward, competently and effectively.

PHILLIPS:

You’ve just described me. And, I have to admit, I don’t like the way you described me. And that makes me think, perhaps there are some needed changes in my future. We’ll get to that in a second.

ABBAJAY:

Brad, just so you know, I’m one of you two, I’m also an Advancer.

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS)

ABBAJAY:

(LAUGHS)

PHILLIPS:

Yes, no crying in baseball. I will play the role of Tom Hanks here. Okay. Category two: the Energizer.

ABBAJAY:

The energizers are also fast paced, but the energizers are very people- and relationship-focused. Think cheerleader. These are the people that like to think big. They like to really move the ball forward in new and creative ways. They may change their minds a lot. They like to build coalitions and movements. They want everyone to be on board and everyone to be positive. Work should be fun. Work should be creative. And they really, they just have great big ideas. They’re really good at starting projects. They’re not always good at finishing them. They can get a little bit bored when you get to the details of things, where if things are too routine or dull, they tune out.

PHILLIPS:

The evaluator.

ABBAJAY:

Everybody likes to get things right, but nobody needs it more than the evaluator. These are your efficient perfectionist. These are the people that need facts that need data. These are kind of like your Dr. Spock types. They are no drama mamas. They’re all about work. Very slow pace. We’re going to measure once, measure twice, measure three times, and then maybe think about cutting. They need to see the trees and the forest. And they’re going to ask you a thousand questions about each tree and each forest. They love processes. They love protocols. They love procedures. And the analysis paralysis. Like they take forever to make a decision because they gotta bring all the information. Everything has to be right all the time. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect.

PHILLIPS:

Right.

ABBAJAY:

They drive me crazy.

PHILLIPS:

I wasn’t going to say that, but yes, that strains my patience at moments. And then the harmonizer.

ABBAJAY:

The Harmonizer is your quintessential, if it’s your boss, your quintessential nice boss. Your quintessential nice person. They are very moderate pace people. They really care about other people. They want to work and create a very humane people friendly organization. They’re often more concerned with people being happy at work and content and safe and taken care of then giving people honest feedback or to making big changes or challenges. They tend to make their decisions based on lack of consensus building. They don’t want to rock the boat. They want people to be happy.

PHILLIPS:

So, I raised my hand and admitted I was an Advancer. You admitted that you are one, too. What is the best advice for somebody working for you to deal with you more effectively? And by the way, I imagine I have so much sympathy for the people working for you. Not because you’re a hard boss, but because it must be pretty meta for people to use your technical tactics and techniques on the person who wrote the book.

ABBAJAY:

Oh my gosh. That is so funny. My team and I talk about all the time. So, they have to teach it. And it’s surprising how, even when they’re teaching it as well, they’re still not following it. They still forget who I am. But we talk about this all the time. So, if I was working for you as an Advancer or someone’s working for me, a couple of things I’m going to recommend they do. First of all, working for an Advancer is going to be challenging, because they’re going to challenge you. But it’s a great way to further your career because you’re going to do things with an advancer that you may not get to do with other bosses, cause they’re really going to push you. So, if you’re working for a challenger, a couple of things, you’re going to have to speed up. Advancers want to get things done fast. They want to get a lot of things done. So, you’re going to want to work quickly. You’re going to want to be as productive as possible. You’re gonna want to dazzle them with your productivity. When you communicate with an Advancer, you want to make sure you are very succinct and very prepared. I say, remember the three B’s: be brief, be brilliant, be gone. Don’t waste a lot of time with advancer chit chatting or this or that. They ask you a direct question, give them a direct answer. Now they’re going to speak with you very directly. So, if I’m working for you, Brad, and you say to me, that’s a stupid idea. Or, I hate that. I hate that. I’m not going to take it personally, because your directness – or your bluntness – isn’t about me personally, it’s about the task or the idea. So don’t take their directness personally, or their bluntness personally. Also, just because they don’t feel warm and fuzzy, don’t think that your Advancer boss doesn’t care about you. They do care about you. They’re just not gonna show it to you. They’re just not going to give you hugs in the workplace. And then the last thing I would say for the advancer is don’t dump problems on an advancer boss’ lap without a explaining why it’s a problem. And the only thing that advancers care about is problems that are impeding progress. And two, never ever bring a problem to advancer without a couple of ideas for how you’re going to solve this problem. And the last thing is, don’t ask them how to do something, ask them what needs to be done. Do not drown them with details. Be self-sufficient. Be independent. Make things happen. And make them happen without involving them as much as you can.

PHILLIPS:

Now based on your response, so almost everything you just said resonates deeply with me, which is why I categorize myself as an Advancer. How would the two of us do together in a workplace?

ABBAJAY:

It would either be magic or a bloodbath.

PHILLIPS:

(LAUGHS) That’s kind of what I was thinking. It’s going to be a high risk, high reward.

ABBAJAY:

Yeah. So Advancers, when they are colleagues, as long as they have clear lanes and they really make sure they know which each are doing, work really well. Advancer bosses, who have Advancers working for them can do really well, as long as they’re very clear on the level of delegated authority on projects that they want – and that there’s good communication. Cause it could be work really well or it could just be a bloodbath.

PHILLIPS:

Sure. If I could maybe dig in on one more of those, the evaluator really also resonates with me because a lot of our clients are academics, scientists, engineers, and they, of course, live in the details. That’s what their job is. So, for a lot of our clients who are communicators, they have a hard time communicating with those folks because they really do speak two very different languages. One general, one very technical. If you are an employee who has to serve a manager who is that evaluator type, how can you succeed?

ABBAJAY:

Yeah. First of all, you have to slow it down. Do not push them, slow it down. You want to always, you got to raise your game a little bit in terms of the quality of what you are doing, which means dotting your “i’s” crossing your “t’s” really double-checking facts and figures. When you communicate with them, you need to bring them data. Real data facts, not alternative facts, but real facts. Never say to an evaluator, “I don’t know; I just kind of feel like this is the way to go.” That is not going to fly with an Evaluator. Show your methodology, show your rationale, show your research. You’re going to be prepared for a lot of questions. The Evaluator is going to ask you a ton of questions. Do not take this personally. That’s how Evaluators create context by wanting to know all the details. When they solve problems, they go to the past first. They want to know everything that came up to that, before they go to the solution, Advancers don’t care what happened. They want to know how are we going to fix it? Let’s move forward. So,make sure and also keep the motion down. They are what I call no drama mamas in the workplace. Like they don’t respond well to anything that has a hint of emotionality or a hit and a passion. So, so slow it down, slow your roll, tap it down. Be calm, be collected, have the data, have the facts. Don’t push them to make decisions too quickly. And, by the way, just when you email them, they’re the only ones they’re going to read. All the emails. They like all the data just be prepared.

PHILLIPS:

You’re also making me think that an employee who successfully learns how to work with an Evaluator may end up working for a different manager or boss or even switching companies at some point. And that the tools they use to succeed with that person, aren’t going to be universal. So, I guess there’s something here about, you’re learning all of these things, but you have to remember the casts you put on yourself to manage a situation or a manager more effectively are not permanent. They’re temporary and you can’t put them on as permanent shields.

ABBAJAY:

I love that because, you know because you have lots of clients. So, I don’t have any bosses anymore, except that now I have hundreds of bosses because they’re my clients. And once you get very adaptive with this, you can pretty quickly figure out where people are. So, I know if I have an evaluator client and when I send them an agenda of here’s what the presentation is going to look like, or here’s what we’re going to talk about in the workshop, they’re going to not really pay attention to the big picture, which I care about, but they’re going to nitpick the internal facilitator agenda. And so, I have to learn like they care about that stuff. As opposed to someone who’s more of an Energizer who just wants to know, what’s like the big passionate takeaway they’re going to have. So, you have to learn how to, how to shift how you’re going to talk about what you’re doing so they can actually hear you. And they can feel like they’re being attended to.

PHILLIPS:

To mix metaphors here, I feel like what you’re really advocating is on everybody’s palettes there’s certain colors that they tend to paint from, put some more colors on there. You may not use them all the time. They may not be the primary colors, but it’s important to have them available to you when you need them.

ABBAJAY:

Absolutely.

PHILLIPS:

Let’s shift now the perspective from that of the employee to that of the manager. What obligations do we as managers have, where we are requesting that our employees manage us up, but what do we owe them?

ABBAJAY:

Yeah. One of the reasons, by the way, that I wrote this book is that I don’t think managers are very good at being managers. And there are hundreds, there’s actually hundreds of thousands of books, articles, TED talks, websites, on how to be better managers. But people, for some reason, are not really embracing it. So, I really wanted this book to help people figure out how to deal with managers, who aren’t just very good at being managers. So, a lot of people don’t believe me when I say what I really care about is what managers do. And managers really … your job as a manager, besides managing the process of what’s going to happen and getting out whatever service or product you’re creating is to manage the human resources of your organization. They are your most important and most valuable resource of any organization. The manager’s number one job, I believe, is to develop their people and make their people successful. So, I believe great managers are the ones that have learned to adapt the different styles and the different ways, the different strengths and weaknesses of their people. So, if you really want to help your people be successful, I want you to actually have the conversation with them, Have a conversation about how to work with you, because I do think it’s important that you are giving people the best opportunity to succeed with you that you can. It’s not just about making them adapt to you, but tell them who you are. Let them know that they can work well with you. Let them know what’s working, what’s not working. Be clear about your expectations. Be clear about what you want. Be clear about finding out what’s important to them. What are their preferences, their priorities, their pet peeves? Have the conversation. Give people a roadmap. And managers, please look to adapt wherever you can. So, with my team, I have all different kinds of personalities in my team. You know, we talk about this stuff a lot. We do it for a living, but we do have these conversations and we negotiate around it. So, we’ll start, for example, we’ll have a team meeting and I’m like you on mine, like, just get, let’s just get to business. Let’s get off. I got 10 more things to do. But my team wants to chit chat. I’ll say, okay, well, how long do you guys want to tip chat before we get to work?

PHILLIPS:

You need that to be quantified in order for you to feel good about it. And if you’ve agreed on a five-minute chit-chat conversation, then you can just put it on your task list and then you feel good. Okay, I accomplished the five-minute conversation.

ABBAJAY:

Exactly, exactly. So that’s what we do. And they’re like how about 10. I’ll give you five. We negotiate. Or I will say to them, do you want me just to listen to you? Or do you want me to solve the problem? Or do you want me to coach you? I really think it’s about developing a relationship with your people that is evolving. That’s an evolving, adaptive relationship so that their needs are met. Your needs are met. And, of course, the organization’s needs are met.

PHILLIPS:

And just to be clear, am I hearing you right? That the manager’s obligation is primarily to have the conversation with the employee, explain to them who they are and how they can best be worked with. But if I heard you correctly, you didn’t say that a manager, who’s an Energizer, for example, but has an employee who’s a Harmonizer should change their management style to become more of a Harmonizer.

ABBAJAY:

No, I think it’s a partnership. I think that as a manager, you should explain to your people who you are. You should also learn about who they are and together you should talk about ways that you are going to help adapt to each other. Now, the thing is the manager, there’s one of them, right? And there could be 10, 20 of you. So, the more, I think, it’s going to be easier. And on some level, the employee is going to do a little bit more adapting probably than the manager, but I think absolutely managers should learn to adapt whatever they can.

PHILLIPS:

Finally, I want to ask you about diversity, inclusion, and equity, which is a conversation that I’m having with virtually every client. What a lot of people who are very smart in that space have told me is the diversity piece, in many places, is improving. But what’s not improving is that once people are recruited into an organization, they still don’t fully have a seat at the table. Their voices are not fully heard. And I’m curious how you reconcile. Because on one hand we want people who are different to come into an organization and have that diversity as a strength and have their voice being listened to. On the other hand, we’re saying, figure out who I am and adapt to me. How do those two seemingly contradictory positions get reconciled?

ABBAJAY:

This is a really great question. First of all, your job as a manager is to help people succeed. I think we have to … they are hard to decouple … but we do have to think about the style of communicating. For example, if I say to you, Brad, you know, I really don’t do well with a lot of details. I need you to communicate with me in big picture. That’s more of a style thing than an inclusion thing, right? I think anyone can learn to go big picture or details. So, I think what you want to be able to do is make sure people feel heard and valued. These are like small acts of inclusion. So, for example, when you hold meetings, are you giving everybody an opportunity to contribute to the meeting? Or, are you just letting all the extroverts move. Are you asking people who have less experience, maybe your younger team if it is generational, what their viewpoints are? So, I think it’s about making sure that on the little things like, you know, I’m a nitpicker, I need details, you’re being clear to people so that they can work to improve that or help you get that. But you want to also make sure that you are including people. You’re not trying to change who they are. You are not discounting their perspective or their experience if it’s different than yours. But you are helping them kind of shape it in a way that’s going to be effective in that organization. Because organizations all have cultures as well. For example, if I am a head of a hospital and I’ve got doctors who are just unfriendly, regardless of who they are or where their background is, I’m going to teach them to be a little friendlier for the patient, so we don’t get sued all the time. So, I think that you have to take a step back and ask, why am I asking this person to shift? Is this more about my bias? Or is this really a skill that’s going to help them succeed?

PHILLIPS:

Well, Mary, I have loved talking to you and learning from you. And I will say sometimes you meet somebody, especially after you’ve read their book, and there’s this in compatibility in who the voice you had in your head when you were reading it, and then how they actually talk in real life. You are the same.

ABBAJAY:

(LAUGHS)

PHILLIPS:

And that’s a compliment. As I said to you before we started recording this, I loved your book. The book for listeners is called, Managing Up: How to Move Up, Win at Work, and Succeed With Any Type of Boss. I don’t want to say we’ve scratched the surface, because I think you’ve offered some substance of unhelpful tips. But if you’re interested in the conversation we just had, I unequivocally recommend that people read that book in full. Mary Abbajay, you’re a powerhouse. Thanks for joining me.

ABBAJAY:

Brad, thank you so much. And congratulations on your amazing podcast.

• leadership development
• managing up
• Mary Abbajay